This week, Dr. Sarah McLean, Assistant Professor at Western University (Ontario), joins us to discuss, flipped-classroom approaches, community, and social connection in online and blended spaces.
Follow Sarah on Twitter: @DrSarahMcLean
Links & Resources
Dr Nicole Campbell: @drsoup09 on Twitter
Western University’s Centre for Teaching and Learning
eLearning and Curriculum Specialist Beth Hundey’s website
This week, Dr. Sarah McLean, Assistant Professor at Western University (Ontario), joins us to discuss, flipped-classroom approaches, community, and social connection in online and blended spaces.
Follow Sarah on Twitter: @DrSarahMcLean
Links & Resources
Dr Nicole Campbell: @drsoup09 on Twitter
Western University’s Centre for Teaching and Learning
eLearning and Curriculum Specialist Beth Hundey’s website
Ingeborg van Knippenberg (IvK): My name is Ingeborg van Knippenberg, and welcome to
conversations on online learning, the podcast in which we discuss online learning and how
to support it. In each episode, we'll ask our featured guests to relate their own
particular area of expertise and experiences related to online learning. And we'll
discuss how this has informed their understanding of online learning.
We'll also ask our guests to share their advice for teaching and learning support staff
who want to enhance and develop their own online learning support. Our guest today is
Sarah McLean from Western University Ontario, Canada. She's an assistant professor in the
Department of physiology and pharmacology and anatomy and cell biology. And she joins us
today from Ontario. Welcome, Sarah.
Sarah McLean (SMcL): Thank you.
IvK: It's great to have you here today. So for starters, can you tell us what you do and
how you came to do it?
SMcL: Yeah, so I've been in my current position at Western since about 2012. And I'm in a
teaching intensive position, and that most of my time is teaching. So 70% teaching, I do
have research in service as well. And my first task when I was hired was to make a senior
level course, that was engaging students and getting them to think, you know, deeply and
participate. And I thought, wow, okay, that's a pretty tall ask, and also to make it
interdisciplinary within the medical sciences. So I teach in the interdisciplinary
Medical Sciences Program at Western, and we're really large module, but it has a lot of
interesting opportunities. So with this in mind, I thought, okay, 2012, I started with a
flipped classroom, so my students did online learning modules on their own time. Over the
years, I've used a few different types of programs to develop them. I've used captivate,
which was fun, it was a little technically challenging for me at first, articulate, and
then most recently, I've simply done some videos that I've chunked up into five or six
minute blocks. So what I've been doing with this, and with all of my classes, actually of
late, is I've been using a flipped approach, and particularly with the move to fully
online learning due to the pandemic. Now, doing the flip before actually made it pretty
straightforward. For me, in order to do it, because I already had some of that content
ahead of time, it was thinking about how to adapt those synchronous sessions. So they
used to be face to face, I would, at Western, we've got a few really great facilities
that we call active learning spaces, where students can collaborate in groups, there's
whiteboards all over the all over the room, they can be higher low tech. And so it's
really amenable to group collaboration. So that was probably the biggest challenge in
doing it this way with the pandemic is okay, how can I set that same kind of feel up of
that relating to our peers having that rich discussion. And so the way that I did that
was to be really explicit, with the synchronous time. And this is my perspective, and
people can argue with me, but I think any kind of synchronous time or one simply
lecturing is not a good use of time, I think there are a lot more rich things that we can
do with our students, I really embrace a students as partners approach and in my own
experience, and practice, having students contribute their ideas, either from other
classes or you know, some of their own hands on work that they may have done in the
community or in different labs has been so instrumental, and just makes the the
conversation that much richer. And frankly, I don't know everything about everything
either. So when they're able to bring in those ideas, it helps. So the way that I do the
flipped classroom in a fully online environment is one thing is that I make a really
explicit kind of schedule for what is expected throughout the week. And I did this after
the idea of one of my colleagues, Dr. Nicole Campbell. So she would basically have what
she called a weekly roadmap. So it has the week laid out for the students when they can
expect to do what, and then during the synchronous session, kind of breaking it down as
to what the different elements are that synchronous session. So for example, I would do a
mind map for the students kind of looking at what it was that we had learned online, so
I'd take my iPad, draw it out and get them to help me fill in the mind map as we went. So
for example, the particular course that I'm referring to right now is talking about
inflammation and how it can be both a helpful and a harmful process and disease,
depending on a few different things. So we would talk about what we learned online, I
would draw it out, they could see me drawing in real time through some of the video
conferencing software that we used. And they really liked that. So they would contribute
their ideas, I'd ask them questions. And I think one of the best things that I learned in
the online environment that I'd like to continue in my teaching is the chat function. The
chat function in some of these online platforms is awesome. And I think it allows
students, particularly those who might not be as comfortable to speak up to really
contribute. So I would usually put out a prompt and I would say, okay, folks, you know,
what do you think about x and within seconds my chat would blow up with everybody
contributing their ideas. One way that I found to help facilitate this kind of discussion
feel that I get with a flipped classroom is I pulled I pulled inspiration from peloton
and I know that's also I think I'm doing like all the pandemic major you know, trends
right now I bought a breadmaker bought a peloton just got a puppy. You know, all of this
stuff, I'm doing it. But with peloton for those who don't know, one of the cool things
that they do is in the synchronous session, if you sign up, they give shout outs to
people. So they would comment on you know, oh, hey, Sarah MacLean, I see that you're at
so many races, great job. So I would be really explicit when a student made a good
comment to say, Hey, you know, Tyler, that is a really good comment there. I'd like what
you added. And I see the Muhammad's agreeing with you. And Muhammad thinks x as well. So
kind of giving a voice to that I think really made a big difference. So the building
community was really important for me. And there's been a few different ways that I've
been trying to do that with a flipped classroom.
IvK: That sounds great. It's great to hear that that works well. And it's it's so true
that calling out these things to students really helps them to feel that they're doing
the right thing. They belong here and perhaps draw the Shire once in a bit more as well,
to see that it's, it's, I guess, in a way rewarded to speak up. So how big are your
classes? How many students do you have with you online?
SMcL: So in my online classes, right now, this past term, I had 85 students, so not huge,
that's at fourth year. So we are trying to not make them that large, but big enough as
well. So for some of the group work that students do, we've used Microsoft Teams to break
them out into teams. And they would have the same teams throughout the term for a group
project. But then within our video conferencing software, I've just randomly assigned
them into different discussion groups, and usually give them a prompt and give them a
very specific amount of time, which seems funny, but it was really helpful in the online
environment to be very explicit, so that they knew exactly when to come back. So I'd say
okay, I'm gonna see you back here in seven minutes at 9:43am. And then when they'd have
to be back, because the time part is important, and usually what then the students would
do is they would have somebody type and kind of summarize their contributions and post in
the chat. And they'd also have the opportunity if they wanted to kind of raise their
virtual hand and they could speak up too. But like I said, I think the chat function was
awesome, and highly encourage those who haven't, you know, really embraced that in the
virtual environment to do it, because it was a game changer.
IvK: It is it is so helpful. Did you find it was a bit of a learning curve to what you
mentioned about being precise in instructions, what they are supposed to do in the
breakout rooms? Because I think it's something that I've stumbled on at times that I
thought, that's theirs. There's a learning curve?
SMcL: Absolutely. I mean, I found like, repeat myself, and maybe that was helpful, or
maybe was annoying. I'll find out on my teaching evaluations, I guess, in a few weeks,
but I would again, give very specific instructions I had on the PowerPoint, you know,
where the slides I was sharing exactly what they are supposed to do? What question
sometimes, depending on the prompt or what it was, if they were in a different group,
they had different prompts to respond to. And then the other thing that I found that was
really helpful was to post my slides ahead of time, I would always have some kind of
like, I guess, I think some people sometimes people call them like easter eggs where I
wouldn't show it ahead of time for some different fun elements that I would put in. But
for the most part, I would share my slides, particularly for those breakout rooms, so
that if the students got lost, they could just refer back to their PDF and then see,
okay, we're supposed to be talking about this. I didn't do that initially. And I was
like, Well, obviously they would like to have something tangible that they can look back
on.
IvK: Do you find there's a limit to what you can ask of students to do in that space
that's perhaps related to, you know, hardware or technology, what they have? How much?
Because, you know, I tend to have two computers on the go at the same time, but some of
my students are just on a mobile phone and can't engage, perhaps with all the things I
might want.
SMcL: Yeah, that's a really great point. I mean, there were usually, you know, connection
issues that a given student might experience during a session. And one of the
recommendations from Western University that we all implemented was to record those
sessions, so that if student did have connectivity issues, they could always come back
and take a look at that video recording. Similarly, I mean, with the pandemic, people
have different responsibilities, there's different barriers that they might face in being
able to attend that synchronous session. So we would always give them multiple
opportunities to participate asynchronously to so that they wouldn't miss out on that.
But then similarly, if they needed to access those synchronous recordings, because
something else was going on, they were made available. And I guess that's an advantage,
perhaps, that you have of doing things online, you can have a recording for people to
watch afterwards, which you might not probably wouldn't do in a face to face classroom.
No. And I mean, I think that's one of the interesting things that's been brought to
light. I have experience with online teaching. I've been doing it for a really long time.
I'm currently doing my Master's in educational technology through UBC, University of
British Columbia. And I'll be finishing probably like at the end of this week, I'll get
my course. Requirements done. Yeah, it's been a it's been part time. I've been doing it
since 2017. Very part time masters. But I think one of the most important things to
consider for online learning in general is that I think if you're not familiar with it,
people approach it from a deficit approach, well, I can't do this in the online
environment, you know, there's limitations this way. And I would suggest flipping that on
its head. And that what you want to think about is, okay, if I'm in this environment,
what is something that I can do that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise? Right, what is
something cool that I could bring in. So I would use that to bring in, you know, guest
speakers for a particular course I had for community engaged learning. And in the past,
it could be a barrier for some of my guests, if they weren't able to, you know, stupid
things like find parking on campus, or they got caught in traffic, which isn't even an
issue anymore. But now going forward, I think, you know, anytime I have a guest speaker,
I'll probably try and do it in a virtual way. Because it brings down some of those
barriers and allows me to have, you know, that much of a greater reach. I mean, I'm
talking to you, and I'm in Canada, and you guys are over in the UK. So I think I think
that just proves my point, right?
IvK: Absolutely. And I really like what you said about how some people see it as a
deficit, and you want to turn that on its head. It's, it's the right time, you know, to
think about how we spend time together, what's most valuable for us to be doing when we
have time to be together? And it's not reading out slides? I think. So it's a great
opportunity to think about how we can almost reinvent teaching, I guess
SMcL: yeah, so that's, I mean, some of my takeaways from this. And with in my current
role, I'm kind of advocating for myself for more of a leadership position, but also
looking at, you know, how can I help faculty who haven't really taught online before and
also help faculty who, you know, may have never, or most likely never been a student
online before. I mean, that's one of the benefits of me doing my Master's in ed is that I
kind of experienced that, because I went through UBC was fully online. So I had, you
know, so many opportunities to see great pedagogy and action. And I think it's simply
something new that a lot of our faculty were never trained for. We never thought, you
know, nobody could have predicted this, I don't think so. I think going forward, as we
move back into the classroom, what I would really like to focus on for myself, as well as
the faculty members, within my unit and across the university is, what are you doing to
make that face to face time meaningful. So if you are conveying information, that's not a
good use of anybody's time, you need to give the students something that they can
contribute to, that they can come away with, that they can build upon. And this has been
my, you know, teaching philosophy from the beginning is that I think students should be
active contributors, and the classroom and to deny them of that I think is really doing a
disservice. So now that we know that there are good ways that we can communicate some of
this information online. And you know, a lot of institutions are looking to hopefully go
back to a blended or fully face to face model within you know, the coming months or
hopefully not years, but maybe years. What are you doing to make that time meaningful, I
think should be the more important question versus Yeah, I'll go back to doing my you
know, 15 minute lecture and maybe I'll ask if anybody has a question at the end, I would
really like to see higher ed as a whole move away from that
IvK: me too; fully agree. So when you do, or when you plan your your flipped sessions and
you think about what the students do beforehand, as well as what you do with them in your
in your session, what are the kinds of things that you make them? Do? I mean, in terms
of, are there group activities or interactive activities for them to do sort of without
you and asynchronously with each other? Or is it a lot of alternative ways of basically
getting through that information that would traditionally have been on slides?
SMcL: Yeah, I think it's probably a little bit of both. So usually, what I would do is in
our LMS, at my institution, would set up very clearly, you know, learning outcomes, I
would always do a little teaser video for them that I used Adobe Spark, which was fine.
It was just, you know, about a minute me talking through what is kind of cool, but what
we'll be learning this week, and I would try and start with a provocative question. So I
mentioned that the one course we talked about was inflammation. And the students chose as
a topic to talk about was the link between inflammation and depression, and there is
quite a link. So I would talk to them about, you know, give some thought provoking
questions about how these might be linked in that little teaser video, and then talk
about the outcomes. And then like I said, you would usually chunk the information, it
would be me with a video or, and those would usually be no more than 10 minutes, I try
and stick to kind of the six minute best practice rule and kind of theme it based on
content that way. And sometimes I would also bring in other sources of media, Ted Talks,
you know, something that might be from general media, you know, news stations, etc, if it
made sense. And I would usually have the students, either before or after class in their
Microsoft Teams, I would give them a, you know, query that they were to discuss with
their peers. So in Microsoft Teams, I had them in groups of about three or four. So I had
about 20 groups or so. And the idea was that they had this group project. But within
Microsoft Teams, they could also use this as kind of a more user friendly discussion
board, I know that discussion is important in the fully online environment. But to be
honest, I'm not a fan of discussion boards, and the one that we have with our learning
management system I find particularly clunky, so I was trying to find a better way,
there's a more intuitive for students, there's almost more like chat to make it less
formal, but they could still talk about it. So I demonstrated for them what a post might
look like. So at the end of each lesson, I would give them something to consider that I
wanted to share. So sometimes it would be go out and find a resource that's not
scientifically accurate, that makes false, you know, associations between inflammation
and this particular, you know, topic that we're looking at. And then they would discuss
it and share in their groups. And I'm really interested to see what the students thought
about that. But you know, I could check in on the chats, it was a lot more user friendly.
And I could see the history of it, and just them kind of ping pong ideas off each other
just seemed a lot more natural. Then the formality associated with discussion posts, I
think there's a place for formal discussion, post two, I just didn't think that it really
fit with the kind of classroom culture I was trying to develop in my class.
IvK: Yeah, I like that. Because I agree, discussion forums on learning management
systems, I find a really clunky and I can see the point. But it makes it a more formal
thing where almost people post things, you know, with references. Whereas what you want
is just, you know, have that almost like a Facebook chat, you know, that informality of
just oh, I haven't thought about this. And that to get them to build it up from there.
SMcL: I think it's a lot more natural for students to write. They're used to
communicating that ways. And, you know, to think about building community with that
within the class, giving them a format that's familiar to them, I thought would probably
make that a little bit easier, for sure.
IvK: Absolutely. So do you what do you would you identify as sort of the, the key issues
in online learning in this setting in this in this area?
SMcL: Definitely connection. social connection with the students is so important. And I
mean, different faculty might have different levels of comfort about, you know, personal
information they might be willing to share. But building that and having that synchronous
component is so important. And that was one thing that I heard from my students this year
was that, you know, I was a human, they're like, Oh, you, you know what my kids would run
by in the background. I'm like, sorry, and they're like, no, it's, you know, it's kind of
nice, actually. That you're dealing with this and, you know, I was very, always very
honest about that. And like, for example, I posted in Microsoft Teams a picture of my
puppy the other day, because I know they're studying exams right now. And I said, your
class, I want to introduce you to Mackey, meatball MacLean saying they had a picture of
him. And they're like this has made my day. And you know, just silly things like that. I
think it's really important, especially because it's so easy to be disconnected. So one
thing that I did with students as well, it was kind of fun, it was also sort of, for me
selfishly was that we would do what I call the PGC, or personal growth challenge every
week. And this didn't really have to do with course content at all, but I was just trying
to use it as a way to build community. So for example, I might, I would kind of different
themes, and they could vote on what they would want me to do that week. So for example,
I'd say, Alright, I need to, you know, get moving a little bit again, which of the
following Are you going to challenge me to do this week, and that would be like you do X
number of peloton classes start doing, you know, push ups, by the end of term be able to
do like one really good pull up or something like that. So then I would let them I would
let them choose for me and vote. And then the next week, I'd report on it. And I would
also say to them, okay, if I'm working on my fitness, or you know, my physical health,
you can too, but you know, choose whatever, choose your own adventure, whatever makes
sense to you. So that's how it started the class, as we talk about our personal growth
challenges that we would pull in, and it it led to a lot of really fun things to be
honest. And sometimes they were a little bit silly. And but I think it really did help
build community. And it was a nice way to start that online class.
IvK: That's the one thing that I've noticed, you know, in meetings and other types of
online stuff is sometimes you miss that kind of serendipitous sort of chat, you know,
where you just bounce ideas off, people get to know them, before you get into it, it
seems that with the online environment, it can be a lot more kind of getting straight
down to business, straight down to business.
SMcL: Exactly. And depending on what the context is, sometimes that's helpful if I'm
having you know, different types of faculty meetings or something like that. That makes
sense. But I think particularly with our learners, taking that time to just try and
connect, and know that there was other people on the side of that, on the other side of
the situation that are still doing their best to try and make this as engaging and
meaningful as everyone for everyone as possible was really helpful. Absolutely sounds
brave, though, to let your students set your challenges for you. So I would I would give,
I would give some options that I was already comfortable with. So the theme for the week,
and I usually have three or four. And it would be like alright, of the following. What
should Dr. McLean do for her PGC this week, and then I would report on it next week. So I
already kind of pre vetted them, it wasn't totally going in there blind. But yeah, it was
it was a lot of fun that way, and but the students find that fun, I think so I'm gonna
miss it, you know, that interaction that I have every week with them. So how is your
students with respect to turning their cameras on in your classes, your online class, and
so our institution had a lot of conversations about this from an idi equity, diversity,
inclusion sort of point of view, and we do not require students to turn their cameras on,
and I can understand, I definitely get it, you know, I would always have mine on so that
they can see me and I would be honest, you know, sometimes and backorder, my office, you
if you look really carefully, you can see my laundry room. And this is just the nature of
the pandemic. But I think if you give the students opportunities to interact in the
synchronous session, it shouldn't matter whether or not they have your camera on, they
will be interacting with one another. And I saw that evidence through, again, you know,
their extensive use of the chat, I would have students who wanted to put up their hands.
They did do virtual presentations. The other week, they had to make a video presentation
that they played for the class and then responded to some questions from their peers. And
they had said, Well, do you want us to have the camera on when we respond to the
questions and I said, if you're comfortable, sure, if you're not totally fine. And if you
don't want, you know, you can even respond to the questions in the chat if you want,
right, because, again, different students obligations might be barriers, right? If
they're taking care of siblings, you know, elderly parents, etc. It can really impact
their ability to meaningfully contribute. So if we're able to decrease those barriers as
much as possible and give them different ways to do that. I think that's a really good
approach.
IvK: Absolutely. It's just I find it harder to work with a screen full of black boxes
agree. And so it's always nice to see faces, even if they just show up for like two
minutes to say hi, I'm here. And I think that's probably I probably compensate by adding
an extra personal anecdotes, so so that I feel like I am talking to somebody there and
making it a little more conversational. So what advice would you have for anyone who's
listening who's involved in teaching or supporting learning and wanted to develop their
learning and teaching online beyond beyond the emergency practice?
SMcL: Yeah. And again, I would like to, I hope that others will see this as an
opportunity, right, rather than a knee jerk reaction of Oh, it's viewed online. Now we
can do it back face to face. Thank goodness, we can just go back to what we were doing
before. No. And I think the other thing would be to kind of bust some of your own
assumptions about what online learning looks like.
One model that I really like is the Samer model from Quinta, Dara and 2010. And I can I
can share that link or patronize you in? Yeah. So basically, it's when you're thinking
about your use of technology, in education, there's substitution, augmentation,
modification and reinvention. I think that's, so that's S. A. M. R. stands for those
different options there. And, again, with technology, if you're simply substituting,
that's not really the best use of it, right. And, you know, as a stopgap measure for some
of what's been going on with a pandemic, that's what we have to do for the timeliness of
it. However, going forward, what is it that you can do to reimagine it, to give your
students opportunities that are going to be totally different. And there's all sorts of
opportunities either for virtual field trips, for different types of online simulations
for bringing in guest speakers, from wherever to do different types of digital media
creation? Don't limit yourself.
I think the other thing would be for when some of us or all of us or whomever might move
back into that synchronous, face to face environment, really thinking about what are the
goals that you have for that session? And what are your learners going to be doing?
Because especially now that we've seen that, you can make effective online learning and
you know, deliver content effectively. If that's all you're simply doing in the face to
face sessions, you're going to lose your learner's, they're not going to be coming
because they could just access it afterwards. Right? from the comfort of their home, in
their PJs, with their sleeping puppy on their lap like me, so why wouldn't? Why wouldn't
we do it that way? So I think of flipping how you think about the the use of the face to
face versus the technology. And again, questioning your own assumptions about what those
sessions are for would be really important moving forward.
IvK: Absolutely. And I like that term reimagining. Yeah, what we can do. I like that as
well, the, you know, going back to the essence of things like what is it that we want to
achieve here today as a guide for what you do? So in all of this, what or who are the
things or the people that have inspired you, or tips or links you could give us to have
a look at if we wanted to learn more about this?
SMcL: Absolutely. So I work with a great group of educators at Schulich. There's a number
of us that are teaching intensive. So having that great group of faculty to hang out with
our talk with is great. So I follow different people on Twitter, for example, my
colleague, Dr. Campbell, I want to say she says Dr. soup, because campbell soup, and some
of my colleagues at Western to within our Center for Teaching and Learning have done a
fantastic job of putting up different learning resources. So I can provide the link but
teaching.uw.ca slash elearning. We have all sorts of different resources, as well as ways
to think about some of the course load and some of that burden on students to in terms of
now that they have all of these courses online and likely more small assignments, is
there a way for you to figure out how you are giving them a reasonable amount of time to
get their tasks done. And finally, one of my colleagues who works at the Center for
Teaching and Learning her website is hundi.ca. So h u n d y.ca. And she has a lot of real
practical, awesome tips for both elearning types of innovations, and how you might
facilitate that, as well as just general good pedagogy. So, for example, one template
that she had set up that I used this year with my colleague, Dr. Campbell was how to get
students to self assess their participation in the online class and their professionalism
as well, to set goals for themselves, so I've used that template and I love it. And I
think that's probably how I will be assessing participation going forward.
IvK: There's a lot of really nice key metrics in there and, and thought provoking things
that you get the students to think about when considering their participation. So it's a
real nice reflective assignment. And she's got all sorts of wonderful ideas like that,
that I like to borrow. That sounds really great. And I'm definitely going to look up that
site. Because Yeah, that that self assessment in their participation is, I think, a
really valuable tool to have something like that.
SMcL: Absolutely. And it's, you know, those things add to giving your students ownership
of how they learn. Exactly. And I think, you know, as they're progressing through
undergrad, and you know, my students, most of them are in fourth year, they're looking to
go and do something else afterwards, whether that's further education and graduate or
professional programs or into the workforce, havingthose self reflection abilities and to
think about and having that growth mindset about, you know, what can I do going forward,
I think is really important. And it's something that we want to instill within our
learners, for sure.
IvK: Sounds great. I think you have very lucky learners.
SMcL: Thank you. That's, that's good. Even if it's just for my puppy, maybe that's part
of it, too. Yeah, some of those websites that I mentioned, I think are really great
resources. I think the academic Twitter community is somewhere where I found a lot of
support and kind of encouragement during the pandemic. So if you're not on Twitter, go on
Twitter, find different educators that are either in the same discipline or more broadly.
And there's a lot of really great people that I follow.
IvK: If you're if you're entirely new to Twitter, and you come in where do you start
finding this educator community? Yeah. So if you look in the hashtag academic chatter,
that's where you might find some of those educators and usually what I find is it's kind
of like a network effect that I found one person like oh, you know, they give a little
snippet of what it is that they do and kind of their description I follow them and then
Twitter also give you further recommendations based off that so there are disciplines
specific one so if you're in you know, anthropology you can certainly find lots of
anthropology educators or like me in STEM or you know, women in STEM you can get as
specific as you want within Twitter. So I really enjoyed my time on there. It's quickly
spirals out doesn't matter if you just start with one thing you will notice people
replying and other suggested links.
IvK: Thank you so much. It's been fantastic talking to you hearing all about your
experiences. If anything else comes up, get in touch you can always come back.
SMcL: I will; this has been a lot of fun. Maybe you visit in person one day when all of
this lockdown, everything is done.
IvK: Let us know if you're coming over to Scotland
SMcL: I would definitely a life goal for me. And we can arrange a face to face session.
That would be great.
IvK: Thank you Sarah.
SMcL: Thank you.